Observations from iSpot making their way directly into the NBN atlas

That is rather depressing! But at least it sounds as if some groups are being adequately vetted - dragonflies in the UK for example where I’ve had records that I was convinced about rejected!

Another issue here is that we may be at the highwater mark for ‘real’ (wrong word) biological recording as there is the potential for all the databases we know to be swept away by eDNA.
A few well placed samples of soil, water and one or two other substrates can generate more records than a whole army of experts in individual species groups and there is a chance that these records can be quantitive as well as qualitive.
This is already starting to happen. One of the problems is that there are so many different species, or at least sequences, being generated from even single samples that it is tricky to know how to handle them.
There may be 500 fungal sequences from a small nature reserve but does that mean there are 500 species of fungi there, some may be matched to the things we know but a lot will be things where there is no obvious fruiting body and may be no description. This does not only apply to microbes of course.
Discuss…Can see that I have been in exams meeting all morning.

I thought I needed to know more about NBN.

NBN is a charity. Motto Making data work for nature

This is from their vision:

Working with our National Biodiversity Network – the UK’s largest partnership for nature – we create a vast flow of data carrying the evidence needed to protect and restore biodiversity, and the stories to inspire wonder and commitmen t.

I think that we are here concerned about a tension between vast flow of data and the quality of the evidence it is carrying. In other ispot fora we have expressed our reservations about some of the data produced by apps & websites including our own iSpot. Between the narrow limits of Academic Rigour and the broader area of Citizen Science.

And from NBN website. https://nbn.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/NBN-Trust-Strategy-2022-2027-Web-Nov22.pdf

Ambition 3
Citizen science is valued, supported and expanded as a major source of biodiversity data. The value of data from citizen science (also known as community science) is increasingly recognised by governments and funders. Participation is growing, facilitated by apps and websites such as iNaturalistUK, iRecord and iSpot, and by high-profile projects such as the global City Nature Challenge. We will champion citizen science for biodiversity and help ensure it makes the greatest possible difference for nature. ( My Bold)

Ambitious, but let’s hope they can do so.
It is here and we have to live with it.

Postscript. Courtesy of DR.

There are known knowns. These are species we know that we know.

There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are organisms that we know we don’t know.

But there are also unknown unknowns. There are organisms we don’t know we don’t know.

Recognising the last of these three can be the most problematic.

……

Exams, Oh, that sounds like fun…

My answer will include the following:

Why Monitoring Biodiversity is Important.

What is eDNA?

How can eDNA be Used to Identify the Organisms in a Community?

What Are the Advantages of Using eDNA to Identify Species?

Are There Any Problems With Using eDNA?

What is the future for eDNA?

https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2019.00150

Actually it was photography exams not ecology ones in this case. Was interesting that although we have dealt with thousands of students since the courses have been running there was one new issue this time which we had never come across before that needed to be dealt with.

Have been to quite a few talks on eDNA but the one that struck me most recently was from a manager who had got money to monitor the areas he was in charge of and decided to do a bunch of eDNA samples but was then totally overwhelmed with the huge numbers of ‘species’ that had been found, very many times more than normal surveys. What on earth to do with the information in terms of managing the sites for conservation.

Ok, here’s a photograph to supplement my eDNA exam answer…


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Now if I can only find my PCR machine and get access to the DNA database….
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As to volume of results you mentioned, even a field trip to the seashore would produce a lot of results, especially if one did a plankton trawl.

But how to find the time when one gets back to sort it all out…

Looks like a Michelin star pudding! Poire brulée avec jus d’algue?

Mais non; des lentilles de Puy nous avons oublié dans le frigo.

I don’t think that Masterchef would regard that as a good excuse.

Looks like Primeval Soup to me. There could be species entirely unknown to science in there!

I’ve really enjoyed the discussion above. It’s raised all the points I could possibly have hoped for when I posed the original question. Data quality and verification seem to be the key issues to me. It does seem pointless having lots of bad data from people who don’t know what they don’t know (thanks Jo). However I was one of those people a relatively short time ago, and thanks to iSpot and other forums I think I do now know what I can confidently identity and what I can’t. But it takes a lot of work to get from casual observer to even a very slightly higher level of knowledgeability.

Incidentally, there is now officially a shortage of taxonomists, according to this article. It amused me initially that there could be a Red List of Taxonomists, but it’s a serious problem. The whole recording system falls apart without expert verifiers. European Red List of insect taxonomists - Publications Office of the EU

2 Likes

Thanks Ken - I’m getting there!

Sorry, that was in answer to a comment by Ken that’s now miles above us… I forgot it wouldn’t go in where the original comment is…

Nonetheless, good news!

But you can do this, by highlighting the text in the original (to which you are responding)

Can you give some more details? What was the site? What was in the species list? When you say the site manager was overwhelmed by the number of species found, were these all named species or is there a parataxonomy with eDNA that tells you there are, say, 40 crustaceans but doesn’t say what their names are? Are the results swamped by soil microbes?

People often use water samples for eDNA which, if it is as sensitive as its reputation, will tell you everything in the catchment above the sample, rather than what is in the patch you are interested in.

I have heard that putting a soil sample from a waxcap grassland through DNA analysis tells of many more species present than traditional mycology detects. This is an interesting issue. If you do a site league table based on DNA, have we picked the right sites as waxcap SSSIs anyway and just not realised how rich they are? And back to an old conundrum with fungi: if they are producing fruiting bodies, is that because the habitat suits them or because it doesn’t suit them and they are putting their resources into dispersal?

From the Red List article you quote:
The self-assessment survey indicates that there is a strong age bias in taxonomic expertise towards the older age groups, with the age group 40 - 49 being the most represented, followed by 50 - 59; 60 - 69. The fact that the age group 18 - 29 is the lowest represented suggests that the taxonomist population is ageing, with insufficient supplementation of young early career taxonomists.

Will try to find more details, it was certainly a conference talk and I think towards the end of 2022. The person was managing woodland sites. The species list was more or less everything as far as I recall so all the microbes, inverts, othe animals, not sure about plants and those too easy. Would have depended on which markers used so may not have bothered with the ones for plants. Think they may have published something but still swamped by the quantity of results.

On the topic of Citizen Science, this claims to be a successful project
« Avon Wildlife Trust used the funding to recruit four local people – a project manager, a project assistant and two placements. This team organised and led:

  • 30 public engagement sessions, attended by 372 people, to provide training on techniques to survey plants, grasses, bees and butterflies, and
  • 70 survey sessions, attended by 139 volunteers totalling around 300 volunteering hours, to help the council monitor and record biodiversity changes created by rewilding.
    .
    North Somerset rewilding project a success | Avon Wildlife Trust

In reply to Mike (I can’t use the ‘copy’ technique because I’m on a phone!) was it perhaps Andrew Stringer from Forestry England at the NBN Conference in November? He certainly talked about eDNA and the sheer volume of data it generated. The presentations are at NBN Conference 2022 - Presentations - National Biodiversity Network - I didn’t make any notes unfortunately and I don’t know how much sense the presentation makes on its own, but it’s a starting point.

And presumably cannot run without people in the tiers below to care enough about species and habitats to learn to identify their finds prior to verification. Membership of naturalist societies, geological societies, geographical societies and so on is notably grey, of course. I seem to remember Dr Mike writing something a while ago about how few UK University courses include significant input on botany, for example.

In the US, universities/university extension departments have Master Naturalists schemes that support amateur naturalists to learn more and to make real contributions to species and habitat monitoring. I think the schemes attract a fee, not sure where they would sit in any hierarchy of learning levels. Example - Register for the 2022 Kentucky Master Naturalist program | College News

Adding: at least some UK naturalist societies have schemess where (younger) members can be financially supported to gain skills to support their career development eg in ecological surveying.